Comments on: Reflections on Christianity in the Korean-American Community http://seed.pennstateubf.org/2009/11/reflections-on-christianity-in-the-korean-american-community/ a blog sponsored by Seed, a student organization at Penn State University Wed, 27 Oct 2010 18:17:21 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Chris Kelly http://seed.pennstateubf.org/2009/11/reflections-on-christianity-in-the-korean-american-community/comment-page-1/#comment-25 Chris Kelly Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:16:17 +0000 http://seed.pennstateubf.org/?p=204#comment-25 I've been reading The Adventures of Tom Sawyer to my youngest son lately. I was tickled and delighted to get to the chapters where Tom is in Sunday School, followed closely by his pinch bug episode in the church service. Since we often have such distractions in our house-church (our two dogs and two cats often attend), I have often had the steam let out of my sermons by such episodes. But I am delighted to report that my children do not usually fall asleep or allow distractions to completely get out of hand. They have even reported to me that they enjoy my messages and learned something from them. And when we recently visited a local church, they quickly found that the sermons there were lackluster in comparison with mine. This does my heart a little good, though I am sorry for that pastor and his (very large) congregation. I think Mark Twain would agree with you, the Korean-American experience isn't too different from his... rather a waste of time. Still, I agree with some other comments, that even mere socialization, without any spiritual awareness or growth, can be good for a soul. Eventually we look deeper and begin to see that some of those around us have something we lack. When that dawning takes place, it shouldn't be the occasion to start looking down on those who are still merely coming out of habit, but a time to start praying for them and seeking to help one person, one friend. Even Jesus' own disciples followed him largely for human reasons. They "had in mind the things of men, not the things of God." But the Lord bore with them until they finally understood that his Kingdom was not a political movement, for example, and that he really was going to actually be crucified and die for their sins. Even after the resurrection, they still had doubts. Were they all that spiritual? Perhaps Thomas was still about the level of Tom Sawyer. I’ve been reading The Adventures of Tom Sawyer to my youngest son lately. I was tickled and delighted to get to the chapters where Tom is in Sunday School, followed closely by his pinch bug episode in the church service. Since we often have such distractions in our house-church (our two dogs and two cats often attend), I have often had the steam let out of my sermons by such episodes.

But I am delighted to report that my children do not usually fall asleep or allow distractions to completely get out of hand. They have even reported to me that they enjoy my messages and learned something from them. And when we recently visited a local church, they quickly found that the sermons there were lackluster in comparison with mine. This does my heart a little good, though I am sorry for that pastor and his (very large) congregation. I think Mark Twain would agree with you, the Korean-American experience isn’t too different from his… rather a waste of time.

Still, I agree with some other comments, that even mere socialization, without any spiritual awareness or growth, can be good for a soul. Eventually we look deeper and begin to see that some of those around us have something we lack. When that dawning takes place, it shouldn’t be the occasion to start looking down on those who are still merely coming out of habit, but a time to start praying for them and seeking to help one person, one friend.

Even Jesus’ own disciples followed him largely for human reasons. They “had in mind the things of men, not the things of God.” But the Lord bore with them until they finally understood that his Kingdom was not a political movement, for example, and that he really was going to actually be crucified and die for their sins. Even after the resurrection, they still had doubts. Were they all that spiritual? Perhaps Thomas was still about the level of Tom Sawyer.

]]> By: james yoo http://seed.pennstateubf.org/2009/11/reflections-on-christianity-in-the-korean-american-community/comment-page-1/#comment-16 james yoo Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:52:27 +0000 http://seed.pennstateubf.org/?p=204#comment-16 Hi, Andrew, I read your article with a great interest. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Let me share my opinions with you. It seems like you’ve been in a "Korean-American" church where you felt like the church is just a place for social gathering and the pastors and other church members are lacking. And you concluded that Korean-American community seems to have lost its purpose. If I get to my point, I think what you experienced in your church is also a universal aspect you’ll see in other churches, too. I haven’t been in all the churches on earth, so my judgment might be very limited. I’ve been attending more than 10 different churches including pure Korean churches (in Korea) and UBF churches (in Korea and America) through my life-time. And I have to admit that there was no church where pastor delivers a perfectly God-centered message all the time and church members are holy and flawless. Before I say that, I, myself, have tons of flaws and shortcomings, and I made many mistakes before God. I think the purpose of church is not to have a pastor who doesn’t deliver “shallow or “pleasing” message or have a good body of Christian members in general that study the bible regularly outside church. As you said, a church is a place for worshipping God and at the same time, as a body of Christ, a church is a place for experiencing God’s love, and I believe that this kind of love can not just be obtained by just having pastor with god-centered message, and church members who engage in frequent bible study and spiritual activity. Rather, I think experiencing this kind of love is possible when Holy Spirit convicts each one of member and the love of God smears into them. Yes, we should let Holy Spirit govern our heart, first, and this can not be quantified or measured by the things we see from what people are actually doing. I believe we, as Christians, are all growing in some degree once God called us even though inner process is not visible. Still in the process of growing, people including myself, make mistakes daily. They fall into sins and they hurt other people. Or they just seem to do the worldly things. However, that doesn’t mean that they’re not converted Christians. As you know, Abraham was a flawed man, who made many mistakes and doubted God promise many times but God is faithful, and helped Abraham to grow throughout his time-time. Ok, I rambled a lot, lastly I will just quote, Ephesians 5:1,2 “Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. I do believe that God really wants us to learn the love of God and love one another in a church and when that happens, he will help us to grow no matter how we’re flawed from holy standpoint. I hope that you and I, and we all grow in his love together. Hi, Andrew, I read your article with a great interest. Thank you for your valuable contribution. Let me share my opinions with you. It seems like you’ve been in a “Korean-American” church where you felt like the church is just a place for social gathering and the pastors and other church members are lacking. And you concluded that Korean-American community seems to have lost its purpose. If I get to my point, I think what you experienced in your church is also a universal aspect you’ll see in other churches, too. I haven’t been in all the churches on earth, so my judgment might be very limited. I’ve been attending more than 10 different churches including pure Korean churches (in Korea) and UBF churches (in Korea and America) through my life-time. And I have to admit that there was no church where pastor delivers a perfectly God-centered message all the time and church members are holy and flawless. Before I say that, I, myself, have tons of flaws and shortcomings, and I made many mistakes before God. I think the purpose of church is not to have a pastor who doesn’t deliver “shallow or “pleasing” message or have a good body of Christian members in general that study the bible regularly outside church. As you said, a church is a place for worshipping God and at the same time, as a body of Christ, a church is a place for experiencing God’s love, and I believe that this kind of love can not just be obtained by just having pastor with god-centered message, and church members who engage in frequent bible study and spiritual activity. Rather, I think experiencing this kind of love is possible when Holy Spirit convicts each one of member and the love of God smears into them. Yes, we should let Holy Spirit govern our heart, first, and this can not be quantified or measured by the things we see from what people are actually doing. I believe we, as Christians, are all growing in some degree once God called us even though inner process is not visible. Still in the process of growing, people including myself, make mistakes daily. They fall into sins and they hurt other people. Or they just seem to do the worldly things. However, that doesn’t mean that they’re not converted Christians. As you know, Abraham was a flawed man, who made many mistakes and doubted God promise many times but God is faithful, and helped Abraham to grow throughout his time-time. Ok, I rambled a lot, lastly I will just quote, Ephesians 5:1,2 “Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

I do believe that God really wants us to learn the love of God and love one another in a church and when that happens, he will help us to grow no matter how we’re flawed from holy standpoint. I hope that you and I, and we all grow in his love together.

]]> By: Andrew Kim http://seed.pennstateubf.org/2009/11/reflections-on-christianity-in-the-korean-american-community/comment-page-1/#comment-15 Andrew Kim Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:26:15 +0000 http://seed.pennstateubf.org/?p=204#comment-15 I agree that relationships with other Christians can often help a person see the truth. The true problem with the Korean-American churches I've been to, however, is that the Christians were lacking. The pastors gave empty sermons and yet the members continue to come to church. If one is not learning anything about God by attending church, then the only other reason for attending is to socialize. Moreover, it's not even the possibility that people just don't realize that they aren't learning anything. People have told me that they think the sermons are "shallow." And yet, they continue to faithfully attend that church service every week. So many Korean-Americans I know choose to stick with a Godless church that all their friends attend over a God-centered church at which they do not know anyone. I agree that relationships with other Christians can often help a person see the truth. The true problem with the Korean-American churches I’ve been to, however, is that the Christians were lacking. The pastors gave empty sermons and yet the members continue to come to church. If one is not learning anything about God by attending church, then the only other reason for attending is to socialize. Moreover, it’s not even the possibility that people just don’t realize that they aren’t learning anything. People have told me that they think the sermons are “shallow.” And yet, they continue to faithfully attend that church service every week. So many Korean-Americans I know choose to stick with a Godless church that all their friends attend over a God-centered church at which they do not know anyone.

]]> By: jls http://seed.pennstateubf.org/2009/11/reflections-on-christianity-in-the-korean-american-community/comment-page-1/#comment-14 jls Sat, 07 Nov 2009 12:10:18 +0000 http://seed.pennstateubf.org/?p=204#comment-14 Andrew, Thanks for contributing this article. I admire your courage to speak up and stand on your convictions. Some readers may disagree with what you have written, but I hope they realize that this article reflects your personal experience. I was intrigued by your distinction between "real" conversion -- coming into personal gospel faith and having one's heart changed by God -- and coming to church for the social aspects. Until recently, I would have completely agreed with you. But I am beginning to see that these two experiences are often closely linked and impossible to separate. The church is the actual Body of Christ in the world. When people begin to experience God on a personal level, it is often because they recognize the image of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in people around them. The restoration of one's personal relationship with God is a spiritual reality that is difficult to see. Visible evidence of real conversion comes in various ways, but one of them is restoration of meaningful relationships with other Christians. But I guess your point is that adopting a new circle of Christian friends will often happen apart from inner spiritual transformation. In that, I fully agree. But if that happens, it is not necessarily a bad thing, because it might just be one step along the way to real conversion. God uses these relationships for his divine purpose. Thanks again for submitting this piece. We hope you keep writing. Joe Andrew,

Thanks for contributing this article. I admire your courage to speak up and stand on your convictions. Some readers may disagree with what you have written, but I hope they realize that this article reflects your personal experience.

I was intrigued by your distinction between “real” conversion — coming into personal gospel faith and having one’s heart changed by God — and coming to church for the social aspects. Until recently, I would have completely agreed with you. But I am beginning to see that these two experiences are often closely linked and impossible to separate. The church is the actual Body of Christ in the world. When people begin to experience God on a personal level, it is often because they recognize the image of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in people around them. The restoration of one’s personal relationship with God is a spiritual reality that is difficult to see. Visible evidence of real conversion comes in various ways, but one of them is restoration of meaningful relationships with other Christians.

But I guess your point is that adopting a new circle of Christian friends will often happen apart from inner spiritual transformation. In that, I fully agree. But if that happens, it is not necessarily a bad thing, because it might just be one step along the way to real conversion. God uses these relationships for his divine purpose.

Thanks again for submitting this piece. We hope you keep writing.

Joe

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